hello welcome to round lens episode 87 I'm your host David J Murphy join with me as always are my two co-hosts Zach Roberts and Ron Hamilton guys and out yourselves hello I'm Zach Roberts a photo journalist and currently you know in a bunker undisclosed location and somewhere outside of Charlottesville older Jenny I'm also in an undisclosed location Ron which is location are you in you know I'm actually I'm disclosing my location today I'm here at my house in Waikiki oh jeez that's too much information we're on they'll be at your door in no time Casey I know around lends to the live weekly visual journalism roundtable show you can find out more about us at around the lens calm you can also find our social media we're an ATL podcast on Facebook we're at around lens on Twitter and we're at around the lens on Instagram our panelists this week is Hosea alvarado jose tell us about yourself hey so I'm a freelance photojournalist documentary photographer based out of Queens New York yeah it's basically a big spiel about it you can find me on my Instagram I'm at at Jose Alvarado or my website at jose aldo pode calm he's yeah a long time Jose what's been up to you since last time you're on the show you know I think what's not someone here I can make episode 30 or something spinning it's been a bit snow island it's been a while it's been a while rather been up to I've been doing a rocky up a few documentary projects I've been working on one being about a 26 year old living with multiple sclerosis in the South Bronx and one recently my project right now is documenting a president congressional candidate for New York 14 as she runs against a fellow Democrat joseph o'donnell be cool Stephen can be yourself busy that's great trying to get her as easy can be you're not in Charlottesville though now I was I just missed it I was just as an Atlanta duck covering the Netroots nation the event and then that happened and I was in the plane I was like that's so crazy exactly I was supposed to cover that and luckily I heard basically I heard that there was going to be this Friday night tiki torch rally thing I said well with the white supremacist marching through the University of Virginia campus and it sounds like yeah I'm gonna miss that route well I think it paid off for you though right Zack yeah was the right move it was the right move so since we brought it up let's go ahead and roll right into our first topic this week obviously the big news about and you know around the world of visual journalism and just around the world in general has been the events at Charlottesville as you may or may not have heard you know if you haven't heard about this I don't know what rock you're living on but let me invite me there I'd like to hide under a rock sometimes but anyways a car of white supremists or racist or whatever you want to call him hit a bunch of other cars ended up killing one woman and injuring 19 others and you know there was a lot of obviously fur around that you know based on the response by the President and or lack thereof and in some cases and then you know responses by other people so that was obviously the big news that came out of the event you know in case you know is a the right to unite I think was the the event and then what's that rally United mean I thought okay so basically bringing together all the fascist and white supremacists and KKK and just general Pickett so of the of the robbing other want to stop the stop the genocide against the white race right of course the hardest the white men oh yeah looks super boring but anyways again yeah tragic event woman lost her life and then you know Zack you actually been down there covering the event you actually got some great imagery one image that was you know going just as almost as viral the image that was you know the actual event from the the car hitting I think you know we're gonna talk about you know that picture in a minute because I think it's it's a really striking photo and I think one of those ones that you know is going to be you know when it comes time for the annual awards ceremonies and everything it's going to be that one that I think gets recognized excuse me we'll talk about that in a minute but you know obviously since we have a unique opportunities act with you being in the in the area and you having a photograph that you know went pretty viral I'd like to start with talking about your experience so why don't you go ahead and tell us about how you got into this event and sort of what what struck you to go down there and then kind of talk to us about the story of the photo that kind of blew up yeah so I remember like a couple months ago there was a rally in this in Charleston well or this supposedly at least over this statue of General Lee and a park called Lee park that is now actually called Emancipation Park Park even though Google hasn't actually recognized that yet it's still called Lee Park if you look on Google but it's a bunch of like I said for lack of a better term white supremacy at you know thoroughly believe that there's a white genocide and a white cultural genocide going on in America because I guess that there was a black president for a half-black president for two terms or something I I still haven't really gotten kind of a hold of how the logic behind it but I guess suppose if I ever actually understood the logic behind it then that be a problem upon itself but went there I was there Friday night and there was a a torch a torch March which if you remember some of the iconic photos from the from the previous like a couple months ago you saw these photos all these white guys usually in polo shirts and khakis holding tiki torches because you know I guess torches are too hard to make actual tortures were too hard to make you just have to go down to the Home Depot and buy them out but holding it up and so I you know the person who always looks for a good photo that was a good photo and so I decided to go up to actually go down to Charlottesville even though I was actually driving up from Florida so but I drove up there landed Friday and covered this very surreal and kind of terrifying March several hundred white guys and a handful of in holding marches that are holding tiki torches like a couple hundred tiki torches I'm wincing every time I say tiki torches just if they were taking about it yeah and just like a bunch of white men who are celebrating white heritage and and fighting against the supposed to genocide of whiteness in America holding tiki torches as their symbol so it would be great if they went all the way home I ensure –tz– you know little made of pineapples you know and just no no it didn't ate all that race actually it's a festive celebration of Hawaiian culture Asian Pacific Heritage Month luau luau I had a long interview a long conversation with one of one of the guys at the March who lived in the bay San Francisco Bay Area and he was decrying all of the all the immigrants that that lived in the area and how terrible the immigrants were making it to live in the Bay Area so ya know all the Asian interviews I'm sorry immigrants specifically he was complaining about them being in the area so yeah it's super super fun the the level of ironing cannot be charted on any sort of device that we have in existence today I think that we're going to need to ask audience work on this but yeah so that that that was the kind of like just amazing I mean amazing imagery terrifying and there's a large reaction to the photos that I took on at Washington Post and a whole bunch of other places I picked those photos up with just the unbelievable surreal nature of of this happening in the year 2017 in America even an even from VLAN yeah the photo that that's that I saw from the event that kind of went all over the place of that one guy who was screaming who got dog stand yeah right found out who he was that that isn't yours was it no no it wasn't I I have a couple similar photos that they trying to member what exactly they were chanting I have video that that seems like that seems like weeks ago that at this point but they they were chanting white power slogans you know the stuff that you know as they call with not necessarily like you know white power but you know white power issue oaken's you know things that a dog whistle that would make your your Border Collies ears bleed though so that was that was Friday night and that went to about 10:30 and that was a surreal nature that was just beyond surreal and and so the next day was the planned main event which was the unite the right rally in the in the formerly known as Lee park now known as Emancipation Park that has a massive statue of General Lee man who fought for the enslavement of the Africa of Africans in America and the destruction in the United States so that that person I guess needs a statue so but anyway the only in America do we do we idolize the statue eyes are the people who lost you know yeah I mean I didn't think that America celebrated losers um neither that I think Donald Trump would either you know it seems like he usually focuses so much on losers but anyway a lot of sarcasm in this episode because it's the only way I'm dealing with everything but but yeah but the unites the right Valley was a couple hundred white guys and and basically I don't know if you know what LARPing is live-action role-playing yeah live-action role-playing so picture you know picture an image of your kids LARPing but make sure they look like a bunch of over uh you know heavyset tattooed white guys with you know SS symbols on the back of their neck or or you know swastikas here and and that's what this all this all looked like they had homemade you know homemade body armor and and shields and such that they were well the the police decided in brilliance too that it got a little too rowdy because there's a bunch of big things being thrown out so they decided to push the white supremacist into the street out of the park the only problem was is that the people occupying the space that they were going into were the anti anti fascist and the counter protesters so the public forced the two groups together you know with some like mad idea of like you know okay everybody now get together and kiss and it worked out about as well as you think it could a bunch of people got beat up things were thrown around pepper spray tear gas was everywhere and gas masks are illegal are a felony crime in in Virginia so basically the whole people that almost died because of you know having asthmatic attacks or whatever thankfully I brought my inhaler along with me which is the only reason I was able to as I'm thinking about it I'm coughing remembering it but so then everybody kind of hit the streets and started marching in different directions I ended up following a contingent of of the white supremacist down down the street all the while other while citizens of Charlottesville were yelling at them to go home leave their town and you know no fashion I think was look with no fascists and my hometown or something like that I forget the other slogans but then it being then it became a a small scuffle let's just say started with a couple of young African African American men and and the races and that's where we get to the photo that I'm sure if you've been on if you've been on news sites you've probably seen it in better bring it up now yeah I'm sure yeah so Zach no no locals were affiliated with the KKK that maintains what and not see their way supremacist not I almost everybody everybody I talked to was from out of town and everybody that I've seen identified was from out of town oh and Charlotte has been at least I noticed it as a very progressive looking town and also in general it's been labeled as a relatively progressive town so be very surprising if I mean I'm sure some of the law I'm sure there were some locals there I think that one of the one I think that the organizer of the event is actually from Charlottesville I'm blanking on his but not Richard Spencer the other guy it's basically all I ever remember it but so he basically the only guy that I know of that was actually from from Charlottesville but was mostly almost all out-of-towners including the man who committed you know tried to commit mass murder and you know only murdered one person so what why the rally what was the purpose of the rally they organized rally oh the the the Lee statue the robert e lee statue that is in lee was formally lead part now Emancipation Park it they want to tear it down along with you know many other Confederate memorials not only in Charlottesville but also around the country mind you it's not erasing white history because it's a racing racist history not only because generally is celebrating an era where you know you could enslave other human beings but but because it was the statue was only erected in the 20 to 20 years or 30s and also paid for by white supremacists of the day I'm not under sin sure it was paid for by the KKK or another we're gonna Wow but that's why the statue exists that's actually why almost all of the statues I've ever heard that are being considered to be tear down torn down of Confederate war memorials or whatever almost all of them were paid for and and erected in the 20s and 30s which was basically a large time that was a it was a very large revival of the white supremacist movement and anti-immigrant in' and the KKK in general which is why all the statutes these these aren't actually celebrating you know Confederate history which I'm not quite sure why that's an era as a white person I'm not quite sure why that's an era you'd want to celebrate I'm kind of ashamed of that era that people who scare my skin color enslaved other human beings and then fought and won hundreds of thousands of people died for it so I don't really understand that but I don't know I'm a northern or so yeah my family did their own farming right they just kicked they just kicked the Indians off the land that's all they did my family came from Ireland so I have no blame on any of that stuff my family's so uh so whatever anybody I'm an American I'm like nah I'm more American than you I'm sorry I win that battle if we're talking about white people Americans your family over in the Mayflower back in Trevor the making sure of the Mayflower I know that sounds like a joke but there was my family came over on that part of my family at least came over on that the rest of it probably Ellis Island in other areas Parris yeah how's it climate over there right now with the public it's about 80 degrees and the public is hot for the wedding well there was a let me give you the weather report 95 degrees with about 80 percent humidity and about 20 percent asks the with the pasta of beatings by by white people how about that a little bit of a bluster bring an umbrella today I have a question for as well as that you're talking really about police were shoving the white supremacist out of the park into the street yeah do you think that was by design cause I don't think we're just I'm the unfortunate accident you mentioned that the police had any any now at anything going on I have no idea I've it's been the number one thing that I've done that I talked to on interviews about and and other other reporters that were there can't figure out what the police were trying to do the entire day I mean so I mean what the police did for the most part was there's a kind of there's the basically you know basically stand down order it happens a lot week one orders when like things like black lives matter is doing a protest and they're going to march on the highway a lot of times you have stand down orders the logic behind it is basically allow the protesters to do the thing they're gonna keep moving keep marching and it won't they won't sit down and one more handcuffed ourselves to things and basically just get the thing over with you know it's basically and it's like we just you know cut the arm off to save the brush save the rest of the body we'll just do this for the time being you know and that's usually the logic this though had no logic whatsoever because they literally not just allowed the terrible things to happen but it basically literally pushed the people together and often and often even when they witness things I mean usually the stand down order sano doors exist and like look at if you're just gonna march down the middle of the street it's okay even though we know no that's illegal we're going to allow it not we're gonna be okay with you beating the living crap out of a 22 year old assistant an assistant special ed teacher which is the photograph that I took that you had up earlier Zac you might bring that up what's that if I bring that up the phone up yeah course I'll make sure let's bring up the photo or bring up the conversation so no no I we can jump to that here we go let's talk let's talk about this photo you shot sac telex tell us the story about this photo so yeah we basically uh there was a run-in on the street and we ran it and we I followed a DeAndre Harris who's the kid that's you can see laying on the floor there and he he was being chased by a bunch of white supremacists who shoved him first hit him with the shields that they had and him hit the parking arm of the of the parking lot that he was there and he fell to the ground fell unconscious and then was beaten by five to six white men at differing on which which five to six over over about a minute with clubs and and their feet and fists thankfully his friends eventually came in and chased off the the white supremacist and then it was kind of scurried scurried off into or moved off into a stairwell where he waited for the police response which never came one police officer came along and didn't do anything but and then he waited for the ambulance that also never came until like a half hour later so he almost bled out and died throughout that time period but no charges have been pressed by anyone the police haven't taken any evidence having taken interviews by anyone myself or or DeAndre they haven't contacted and so I guess it never happened according to the Charleston arch I'm sorry Carsonville police departments so anyway right only there was some kind of proof for some kind of evidence and only was a you know made public by someone I have by the way and I do to say this every time I've done an interview on this so far I try to say if the police would like to contact me at the FBI who to Donald Trump has they've opened up a civil rights investigation into the incident happened there I'm happy to provide the photos so I'm happy to provide the raw photos and any other video or anything like that that I might have also I'm more than happy to provide testimony which is not something I normally would ever do but when you see something like this though completely egregious you kind of have to speak out so again I just wanna make sure I understand the situation with regard to how you ended up in the position to take the photograph and sort of like what led to the circumstances of the photograph so you said he was he was was he like what happened before this shot that kind of led to him and a couple of his friends were marching alongside the or walking alongside the the white supremacist march that the in crop to March that they were doing down one of the main streets in the town and they were basically saying go home you know we don't want you here and kind of yelling at them and the it supremacists in turn were returning racial epithets and other things back to them eventually some sort of scuffle happen interaction between the two groups I somehow managed to witness whatever started it but what I did see is the Andre the the man that's laying on the ground there in the photo and did witness him get chased off by a bunch of the white supremacist I then ran followed followed them and basically moved around the back so I could get the photo that I got and not also get beaten by potentially by the white supremacist that were there or have you know have my gear destroyed or something that you know to stop it from being documented oh yeah so right after that after he was he was pulled out of that scene was seen beaten bloodied and with a broken wrist he I then turned around and was almost face to face with one of the other I assume white nationalists that were they who had it 9-millimeter outs the young the group of black men here so that that's also I got had a gun pulled on me right after the loss so I got out of it so you know we moved down and waited for the police basically I hung out for a while as long as I could and then and then basically soon after that I heard that there was another brawl that happened another like a couple blocks away and I still trying to figure out the exact timeline because like moves like one thing after another but then basically we discovered that that the the scene that everybody knows about in charm Charleston Ville uh happened which is when the man I'm not going to name his name decided to you know murder a person and run through a crowd of people you know reasons no yeah so this happened before that happened right yeah it happened like roughly an hour beforehand so no one you know the two completely different scenes unruhe unrelated and only that one of the people that was beating beating DeAndre was in the same fascist group Vanguard America that the the man with a car who drove over people again the two are related in that in that one group that's allowed to exist in America today so Vanguard America Vanguard America I know it sounds like a 401 K doesn't yeah it's company at another so I'm like you know I'm gonna invest some money in Vanguard America I'm not good sure what it's gonna turn out like but lately have you know there's a lot of games in racism and it's affirmative yeah Kenny what can you invest in fascism really I mean but but yeah so we're together – pretty much back so if I'm not understanding correctly so on the opposite side you know where you're shooting with the behind area there is you were there with the crew in the crowd you noticed this scuffle happening you've moved to the other side inside what looks like this parking garage and that's how you get right yeah it's the parking garage that at the bottom level all the police keep their cars I mean it was clearly difficult for the police to respond to the issue because you know they'd have to go up I guess a couple flights of stairs or something but the police department is right next door it's literally 30 feet away from where you have to death and they it took them a full 30 minutes to actually have more than one off officers show up and they never called any backup and never tried to find anybody who were took any interviews never didn't they basically acted like it didn't happen and in fact refused to even talk to me when I when I tried to offer them access to my photos which again if you know me that's very unusual but you know I wanted to try to help help DeAndre as quickly as possible and but no one really had any if you said that I guess in law enforcement you say that gas masks aren't okay but helmet and riot shields are okay anything that covers your food um anything that covers your face it was one of the many laws that were passed after I don't know if was passed directly after Occupy Wall Street but basically when there's a bunch of protesters that showed that started you know marching with anonymous masks or and also you know the masks that you like black bloc you know pull over yeah basically the idea is to to prevent those people from doing that there is an exception even though it's not written in the law I talked to a police officer if you're under the age of 16 and it's Halloween you're okay alright so make sure to do all your anarchists stuff on Halloween you'll be fine it's yeah and so yeah and even and even medical technicians I believe can't do it unless it's a declared emergency so interesting so let me ask you doc how long did this seen last and like how many photos did you get of this scene and why did you choose this frame that frame would had it had the largest number basically largest number people on it and I felt that it it showed it showed DeAndre actually trying to get up and then so it wasn't just this you know unmoving form on the ground and I took basically what I did was I mean obviously as you can tell the the shutter speed is a little off and I'm sure that the eyes you know could have popped a thigh so dear friend King has already tensioning a photographer up DC's has made fun of you for it make sure you just say I did that a purpose because I won the motion you know why I feel the motion that's that's actually I jokingly that's what I tell no I did this on purpose man what are you talking about I wanted action um and and by the way you make fun of this is that dark you know it's a gallows humor or whatever but you should have heard the things that DeAndre the the kid that's better on the floor said about it he he he laughed about it as well as much as you can when I'm surprised he doesn't have PTSD from the scene or whatever I know I'm I I there's a there was a story in The Daily News where they interviewed a civil rights freedom freedom rider from the 60s and he talked he compared this photo to the one of the famous photos that was taken of him getting beaten then and like that was one of the final things that like broke me where am I just usually I don't do I see a lot of things like this one in my work and and this is usually I don't I don't have to deal with it because I'm just editing the photos and then moving on there you go yeah the check that story out the Daily News I was a Charles person yeah I mean obviously there's you know it's not similar completely in the photos there's some other a lot of people up and taking the photo and then putting it next to a any number of you know photos from the civil rights era and unfortunately the comparison works yeah so you you captured this shot and then but none of the like you weren't you like they see you take their photo and do they come up to you and he said the nine-millimeter guy but nobody like thanks for you or anything like that right right no that that that's it's actually it's something in Turin on millimeter also the moment he noticed me taking his photo he quickly put the gun away and then kind of sculpt off these you know as some of them called themselves proud boys which are is kind of a 4chan you know internet troll unaffiliated group of people that are vaguely white supremacist but just kind of you know white they're white supremacist but they're also you know trolls in general there are a lot of people have made like all the memes for Donald Trump and they wear t-shirts like free helicopter rides with with the with the reference to a Lian days you know campaign of terror on anyone that disagreed with him during the 70s where tens of thousands were thrown out of helicopters into the sea and disappeared our life and murdered and they like to make jokes of this they in fact one of the photos that they at the fatigue eat or CH March the lead organizer of the event was wearing a Bashar's helicopter rides t-shirt which now that foot now that t-shirt has basically gone viral and I guess it's selling out and selling well but the reference is you know Bashar Assad you know I guess doing the same thing throwing people out of helicopters if they find that funny cuz free speech you know that's that's and that's kind of the that's part of the premise of this whole this whole thing is that you know people should be able to say what they want to say and a I guess basically have no no no not have to pay for anything they say you know unlike unlike I guess deandre who you know tried to say some things and paid dearly for it so let me ask you you shot the the shot the scene you got the shot and then what happened next I mean obviously you you made a connection with this with this gentleman because he had to get his name and everything like that what happened what happened was it he was bloodied and he was not in any state to talk to me or talk to anything I gave I gave my car to one of his friends but they I think neither they weren't they weren't dealing with anything other than trying to get care for their friend so eventually basically what about the day and obviously larger events happened went and covered the aftermath of the terrorist attack I'm always calling it a terrorist attack because I have no other words for it on on I'm on the town where you know heather was killed and I had a dozen or so or other people were severely injured I believe some people are still in the ICU as we speak no I think it's absolutely a terrorist attack and I believe that's what the Justice Department is calling it yeah and you know I I think you know it had this bin he's got over best had this been a peace protester who decide to run that kinda charity second-degree homicide so when he gets charged with federal crimes then I'll believe that the Justice Department actually believes that it's a terrorist attack and not just you know a white guy that did something bad or something but excuse me for being deeply cynical um but but yeah when photographed after that I photographed some of the injured the people that were injured and again the police didn't actually provide any medical care for the people that were injured all they did only seem to be focused on was making sure that the media didn't get anywhere near the people that were lying on the ground bleeding right but they did have their bare they did have their APC their Bearcat out and have a guy that was pointing a maybe you guys know that the correct term for it the it looks like a grenade launcher but it's for usually for like you know for teargas taking em with not em 209 possibly but basically he had one of those and he was pointing it at the crowd the entire time most live journalists and and and also pointing at I guess but putting it at the victims as well because I guess that they were potentially a danger and Virginia is open carry right yes Virginians open carry yeah clearly because I also by the way told the police officers that I had a gun pointed at me and they also had no interest in it in dealing they didn't care didn't even respond to me when I spoke to them that's the level of único excellent police care that we have so and m203 grenade launcher probably is yeah that that probably sounds right but obviously it wasn't grenades it was for you know this for a you know tear gas or smoke and I quit sure well what they had in there I just wanna sound like a idiot talking I'm talking about it but but I guess I I'm relatively ignorant on it since Ferguson I I remembered my like my riot gear so stack you said they they did they weren't really interesting getting you said they were they're kind of busy taking care of their friends they weren't interested in getting giving you their information or living here 20 but one of his friends reached out to me on through Twitter and instead that if I wanted to speak to him he he'd love to speak to me and and so we set up the interview for the next day happily because I'm more than happy to get the word out by the time I spoke to him you'd already done interviews with three or four different different networks HBO I guess is doing a documentary and they interviewed him and there was a handful I think vice news also did and a couple other people interviewed him NBC was a local NBC affiliate was after me when they did the interviews but in the LA Times interviewed him as well they actually bought some of my video and stills for their story they had a very weird twist on it though because they called him a hip-hop artist and teach in a special ed teacher I thought you know you would lead with the fact these a assistant special ed teacher but whatever I'm not I'm not at LA Times headline writer but but yeah they had little or no interest in it and but what I what basically got this whole thing going is that sitting in a Waffle House editing the photos like you do with these things because usually literally waffle at the Waffle House was pretty much the only place open anywhere near in the town because the town shut down with well former guests shake horse and Daniel Schorr Shirley Rose who's with me they are and I open up the photo which is you know you know when you take the photo you especially if it's a photo that looks like this you don't really know whether it's even use useful at all when it's just on an LCD screen on the back of your camera but I open it up on my laptop and it immediately struck me as something something that would likely be important shown it to Shay and and Daniel and they basically yelled at me that I need to posted it post immediately and so I threw through nation change the site that was technically an assignment for their logo on it and put it up and basically from there it I don't know what initial cause to go viral beyond you know the importance and timeliness of it but basically it was averaging about a thousand retweets an hour and maybe 500 likes an hour and it's up to like 2054 weirdly Mark Cuban retweeted it and basically called upon the Justice Department to actually do something with the photo but but yeah it's been it's been absolutely credible I mean it's it's I'm thank God I put it up at the right moment to they caught because it's raised enough money for it straight enough money for DeAndre to actually get pay for his medical care that he incurred because it was quite expensive and probably a heck of a lot more so because I know he was over a hundred thousand dollars the last time I saw and fun me or something yeah he's starting to go fund me yeah okay yeah basically there's three different GoFundMe right now for Charlottesville and there's one for one for DeAndre one for in kind of a memorial of Heather I feel bad I forgot Heather's last name the woman who was murdered and then a just a general one that's been sorted out because of there's not just it wasn't just those two people that were that were severely injured and even just not even including the 20 or so people that were hurt during the the terrorist attack but I mean just the scene I caught happened other places but I was I was there with a camera taking photos and luckily I come say I had the right settings enough to actually get in images that were usable but yeah just put it on P that way you know what's perfect no no Green Square Green Square all the way I mean the thing I mean the thing is is that you know it's I think that the photo speaks wider that that it's like this I I find so often that photos that go viral in scenes like this are are not cell phone photo or are not professionally taken photos but but like cell phone photos what I find what I do find surprising is kind of a media take on it is is that there's video of this a lot of a lot of this scene and that has not gone viral at all your scene or the other thing of the scene that I photographed my photograph though is gone you know completely and totally viral it's everywhere on the planet and you know basically every single major publication except for the New York Times has either requested it or embedded it weirdly The Times is the only place that literally I don't think has anything about DeAndre whatsoever but I mean I miss NBC hasn't done anything weirdly about it too as far as I know but but it's been interesting who has reached out about the photo and it's but but yeah so it's uh it's been an interesting couple days have you ever had an experience like this where a photo has taken off as much as this has not in any way shape and form I mean obviously you know the last time the last two times that I cover it you know you think about even Ferguson and you think about Occupy Wall Street with to like really big scenes that where things went viral for photographers and neither and Occupy Wall Street was just kind of too early for things to see her severely go viral Twitter wasn't really working that day as much at least some experience and then Ferguson it was just there was 10,000 photographers there and I don't other than I can think of like three photos that went you know viral in that way and and you know I mean those were by professional photographers that had you know or by news via that had a newspaper back in them and everything so it's interesting I want to talk a little bit about the effects this photo has had on you and your life and sort of you know your your experiences working with all these different agencies selling it but I do want to quickly touch on the the photo the other photo that has been very well established its iconic from this event of course you know you gather photograph here I'm gonna bring it up in a second here so this photo again by Ryan Kelly you first tell me so you weren't near this scene when it happened you came there on the scene and you know do you know Ryan Kelly by chances you see this guy out there but you know no I don't I don't know I mean I'm sure I saw him out there but I don't I don't I couldn't name him all right really amazing work in in Charlottesville the past couple days I mean they they've actually came in with some of the some of the best solid photojournalism of the of the week out of everybody who's been there yeah so what it's his it's like his last week right like I'm so far behind on actual news that happened there because I've just been dealing with all this but I believe it's his like this is his last week working at the newspaper he's our job or something go out strong I guess yeah I know I mean caught with you know basically they'd probably end up being the photo of the air and I mean I mean I always have to say I was breakfast I hope it's the photo of the year because it means that they're probably something else happened if it's not you know but yeah there's there's a I know handful of other Fatah photographers that way they're trying to remember Jeff oh my god I feel bad I forgot just last name I think he's been a guest on our show before but he had one of his cameras destroyed during in that in that instant and so I mean there's probably gonna be a lot lot more coverage coming out of it but I don't believe that you can this image is just it's everything it's just yeah so me ask Jose Ron what do you guys think of this image and also the the image that Ron Zak shot Rania I go first that's okay you're the guest you go for it and I think Zak swim plays an important part on what our duty as visual journalists is to do and it's document important events like that I think I think it's great to hear that that the still image is still an impactful papal medium and it's not losing any ground to to video at the same time the second image that we're talking about with with the aftermath from the car I mean that's that's a powerful and it is a strong image I also reminds you that that one image was a few years ago and that the bike race in Mexico and the drunk driver like ran through a bunch of riders so the same time in fact but this is even more just now on American stone it's a very dark history that we have is Ignatian enough to see it for the front page of all these newspapers it's great because that we can you can't ignore anymore you know we're known for lot people they were there putting us on the under the rug like oh it's it's we're develop now we don't talk about this anymore it's um now you have to talk about it it's it's happening in and in great numbers you know no there's a lot of I mean it's just my opinion on it Ron yes did uh you know I'm Rush Limbaugh there so uh we do have two excellent examples here of the scene one is more technically perfect than the other however they both tell the story of what was going on and like Jose was saying that just it just reinforces the the fact the belief that the still image is so impactful we've seen the video of the car crashing through but when you have a still image like this with the bodies flying just frozen in time like this so you can really scrutinize everything every detail this is what matters to me this is what I enjoy still still imagery and along with Zak's you can say well Zak's is too heavily backlit or you know you can see the the pole swinging but I do think it does show the motion it shows that he is beating of the pole not just standing there holding the pole so I think it's an excellent photograph as well even though maybe not as technically correct quote-unquote it still shows the scene it still tells the story and that's what we want to do as photojournalist is tell the story through visual means and Zach did an excellent job at that uh ok also in an ad I think I think also to to piggyback on your statements that still imagery um the fact that when it's still you can see all the Ducks positions they're occurring within the image you know it what the signs of love and at the same time all this love such how angry filled action of running people over you know it's just that's more I think it's more it just speaks more volumes and in the in the actual video because the video something you just you just you take anything that's it you know right then no it's it's it's it's over and done with you see it it's over boom but the image you can actually scrutinize exactly I know if you guys saw that one notice that was going viral too there's that one of the of the african-american police officer standing in front of the gate while there while they're rallying behind him that was actually from the it's believed us from they actually the last event the last time this happened Oh kind of a research which is you know again the important I mean to me it's really you know one of the importance of still as they have a life to them and they obviously with fake news and is like that can be reused in a wrong way but they can you know image it is especially since you know everybody doesn't have you know a 4G you know perfect cellphone signal you can load like a low quality you know image like that and and and still be able to you know view the scene without actually having to watch watch a video or you know I mean and also I mean there's there's kind of a real horror level of a video that is different than still can I think kind of experiences to London without actually horrified by the bodies flying like when you watch that video like I can't we keep playing it on CNN all day and I just ended up just changing engine station for a while because it's like there's only so many times I can see that I see that on little yeah yeah I think you know these two photos specifically kind of go towards the idea that you know a well composed you know striking powerful still image is still going to be a lot more easily shareable I mean the image itself an image is a lot more easily shareable than you know a chip or a video or anything is and I think that's that ease of share ability you know makes think make it even this the age of everybody has a cell phone that can you know do everything I think that you know and when they're striking high-quality well-done imagery by professionals you know and they showcase a real emotion real event that's gonna always you know win out even over you know video that's usually shot from a cell phone and very you know it all it all amounts to what you have you know if you didn't you weren't if it all we had was crappy cell phone video of these events happening then that would be it you know more likely people would just stay still frames from those you know crappy cell phone videos but because we have striking well done well composed professional imagery that's what is winning the day with regard to being the thing that we think about you know yeah so great I think I think there's still a place for it you know there's a there's a reason behind it and you know it's still valuable to people now speaking of value Zak talk to us about how you sold essentially this image and all this period you had on all the major media companies who apparently you know want the image for free even though they don't understand into it it's actually been kind of a good it's been a better experience than most of the time it's such a it's such a an individual image because it's not like an image oh I just have the best shot of theme though I'm the only person so if they want to use it you have to talk to me yeah I mean they they can't be like okay we'll just the slightly less less good photo from you know whatever this protest is it's like it's this or nothing or you don't have a conversation but so there's everybody you know it started with the Daily Mail online asking to you know NBC NBC and everyone at least they send out their first hey can we use this image for into you know for across all platforms or whatever and then I go yeah I'm a professional journalist and you know and surprisingly almost everyone said yes so I think only one local like Ohio news station said yeah I don't think they're ever gonna pay for them which I get it you know I mean I get that small stations not gonna have the money for one from one image or something like that especially when I guess is that if I took me on the evening news in that in that city they probably they just use it with an embedded Twitter for Twitter thing thinking that somehow that works under Twitter's you know legal rights but whatever it's I found it's you know incredibly more important at a certain point to get that image out there and but everybody even a few places I found that without you know and pulled it out of the Twitter post that I put out the few places I've contacted so far I've said ok yeah how much a machine for it so it's been it's been good it's just that it's it's telling though because I still have not finished my as we speak right now I still have not finished my assignment that I went there to do for a nation change I'm sorry I'm sorry Elizabeth my editor that I haven't sent that in yet because all I've been doing is is taking phone calls and doing interviews things like that so it's also it's also fantastic that it's very few opportunities that photojournalists ever actually get to talk as journalists we don't talk we're never interviewed on NPR even if we're as witness witness the the the Hindenburg explosion and as opposed to talk to the person who took the photo that they're using on screen they talked to like the random citizen who was there and witnessed it you know it's always been maddening to me that we're not we're not actually ever paid attention to when we're actually actually journalists there's a reason we're not photographers odo journalists and we can talk about issues just as well as anybody else can I think I hope so and what I really hear on up first on the podcast of NPR what's that I really hear you speak on him up first with NPR I was on oh my god I feel like I was on kcrw their show I boxed to the point I was on which I recommend actually was a really good broadcast the people they had juveniles Python and a couple other people who are actually quite well spoken about it and then there was me oh but it's it's been it's been quite a experience and also you know finally finding out that a lot of places still actually have photo editors which has really been surprising to me I've been contacted by photo editors Jokke so and you know one thing that this proves that all these media public places do you have a budget if they want to spend it yeah no I mean this one thing because you know a few places that I'm just like hey you know let me just throw out this you know a little bit higher rate or something like that because they know that it's a larger reach and you know that's how usually these things work they say yes and so you know if you're if you have a photo that that people want and that you know you think is it's good enough then demand you know know what you're worth demand and demand it and you know don't don't don't allow anyone to take your photos no matter what for free you know unless you have something really unless you're just in the I mean if you're an activist or something then you just want to get the word out okay I guess but if you're a photographer even or even if you're a quote-unquote citizen photographer whatever whatever that means then I you know demand at least fifty bucks you know make them pay for it it also means that if somebody if say if a news organization has actually paid real money for a photo or a video clip it means that they're gonna promote it and then they're gonna push it out there um so if you just give them something for free they'll just throw the photo on there and they didn't have any investment in it so you know again by having said that enough make people pay for photography yes baseball hat make people pay for photography doesn't have the same ring as make America great again yeah well have to definitely have like a show where we sit down and talk about the the sort of the cost pricing sort of the the business side of what you went through I think that's important and because I but I want to like save that for another day because would you have some other topics to talk about because I kind of want to know how it all pans out cuz I'm sure this isn't you know the the last of it we're gonna hear about I'm sure you got other you know there are gonna be other entities that you'll request the image in you then obviously okay next week what we can have is we can have like Shay and and and Daniel on unfortunately they're traveling right now so they couldn't come on I'm stuck in a hotel room an hour outside of Charlottesville so so I I'm otherwise I'd be driving home right now so yeah yeah no I mean we'll definitely have talked more about that I think this is gonna be an ongoing issue an ongoing topic and I'm glad that you you know have had the opportunity to experience it and I hope it's fruitful for you and you uh you know make all kinds of money off this image yes well I hope this this image causes change yeah I I haven't said I haven't said this to many people but I literally this this was this was literally I mean I feel bad it was the fact that I I walked up to the scene when I interviewed when at the Andre and his friends I don't make the short time sorry but and and they literally they were on on Facebook live with their mom or they were video chat and they came up he they came up to he came up to me and put his arm around me and and showed me showed me to his mom and said this is the guy that took the photo and then his little brother who was like it's like 13 14 years old I think like came up to me and was doing taking selfies with me when I went up later him been on Facebook live and was like here's my man and like put his arm around me and like live there like this weird I mean so many times a photograph you know I don't like calling people victims the victims of crimes and they don't want anything to do with you because you're you're a bad memory you're you documented one of the worst moments in their lives but DeAndre who's Ben who's an incredible person this couldn't have happened to a better person for this because he is making this up and really been speaking out about it and doing amazing interviews and he kind of gets why he isn't why he is important to what happened in Charles Ville this weekend and you know he was just incredibly happy and he also you know he also said you know I was like he hopes that I make money from it and hope that I do well from it so it's it's actually it's like I don't feel bad about doing this at all because again I said people spend money on the photos they're gonna promote it they're gonna get the word out about it they're not gonna just let it sit around somewhere and I want people it's more it's still more important for me to for people for me for people to see this photo than it is for me to get a paycheck from it but but on the other hand I literally was driving home this is the last event that I was going to cover as a photojournalist for a very long time I was literally going home to sign up as a lyft driver and start driving lift at home and start like doing going back to research and doing other things so this has really been a life-changing thing for me and the fact that it just went viral and is you know fantastic for the the moment in the movement that's going to hopefully come out of Charlottesville but but yeah so thank goodness I guess hopefully this will continue and hopefully mean more work and I get to do you know what what I try to do and have been basically just putting on my credit cards for the last couple months so so yeah that's great yeah I hope that this is something that leads to something else I mean that's the biggest thing is because and we can talk about this one thing and it can be great and you can make money from it but you know hopefully it opens doors for you and you know something else something else happens you know I think that's the most important thing I can come out of it besides obviously just hopefully being a force for change you know within the country so but I think you've definitely done something that's gonna make your mark man leave your mark on this whole thing we know that we call a career I guess career I think no matter what you've achieved something that many of us strive to achieve or hope that our imagery can achieve or the week we work for you know and it happens the very few of us but you know I think this is definitely one those times you know it's happened to you so congratulations on you know getting I think what's gonna be an image that's gonna you know last for a long time and be you know indicative of this movement and this cause and hopefully again like said you know beyond the immediate lucrative gain it leaves you it to something else yeah now we happened there we all have to step up Rock Ron Jose we got we got step up all right we gotta go next protester who I am there I got a great idea okay erect a robert e lee statue somewhere hawaii then tear it down and you will get all the white nationalist scum in Hawaii the rich ones who can afford to fly over there I'll be good I don't think there's that many places they're gonna they're gonna pay anybody the flights and the day rate to go fly out to Hawaii for for any reason other than maybe if you guys get like a really big earthquake or something like that I'm sorry well let's let's move on to our other two topics we're gonna cover them pretty quickly because we're running long here but again excellent conversation and do want to talk to you more in detail about all this stuff when you when it's more calm down a little bit like so next week we'll probably continue this conversation talk to Zach more about you know the the ins and outs and the background of how he got paid and how he will hopefully get paid you know for the imagery and what kind of that process looks like but you know one of the topics we had for our main topic this evening was about portraiture this is actually you know spurred from Zach so think of shift gears or something a little bit less important I guess in the whole scheme of things but you know Zach what's your argument against first off like can anyone else speak but but literally like oh sure everybody everybody who's potentially watching this or listening to this goes oh thank goodness for Zach and then now I'm going to talk about a topic that's gonna make real frickin hate me yeah let's go out the window I don't believe I don't believe that that setup removed from the scene portraits our photojournalism and districted in the sense that we talked about photojournalism for the most part it's at photography at best but if you take like if you take if you're covering a protest and you take a person and go hey come over here and into like a lighting tent yeah you're you're Avedon and that's great but it's not photojournalism you're not covering the scene as as it is you're you know it's yeah I'm person who clearly if you see the photo I just took and talked about don't really like using flash but yeah because you know all Robert Frank's photos were you know crystal sharp but let's not talk about the technical differences and the situation but anyway but but basically you know my argument is that it's not it's not photojournalism I'm seeing a large movement in in a lot of coverage for places that you know actually buy photography or pay for original original photojournalism is that that's pushed towards no let's just make really nice portraits of people at I'm sorry because if you're listening you know you're talking about my good friend if you're you know covering even a comic book convention you pull people out of the seat and take their portraits that's great it's portraits you could do portraits from comicon of people's costumes it's not photojournalism though if it's off or it's editorial photography or something you know there's there's shit I to me is easy in target maybe there just needs to be a subset it's you know it's like it's street cleaners diagram you know it's like portrait photography is editorial portrait photography is here photojournalism is the big circle and then there's on the left-hand side things like you know street photography and other you know kind of things they're kind of photojournalism but not actual photojournalism and I don't know if that all makes sense basically that's my basically that's my short version of my argument that photo that portrait photography doesn't really include it isn't really included in the kind of the the real scheme of the way that we talk we we think we talk about photo journalism at least Ron I don't think it's Act argument and why is he wrong that doesn't sound like a living question at all I'm was that hundred percent I I agree but I also do remember my days at the paper when they would send me say Ron go go get you know Frank's hot dog stand get a picture of Frank in front of a hotdog stand and there it is ripping green know right yeah exactly exactly yeah I mean I don't know what's the photos Robin I'm like doing the gripping grin I don't know anybody who's doing it yeah I called it a photograph that they publish in the paper yeah yeah yeah Jose why why are both Ron and Zak wrong in return in the purest sense of like photojournalism is my personal is my opinion on it is um yeah you're not you're not supposed to alter the scene at all this was documented for what it is but I think taking portraits of subjects that you're that you're documenting which I would call documentary photography and you're sitting along time investing to learn a specific subculture culture or or to put into light like a thing like domestic abuse of a family or or like people with leukemia and how a specific family affects them and you know that when it comes to stories that are more heartfelt like that and it's not so much of like documenting this event happening at disappointment you know do you think that porches are are needed just because the viewer needs to feel like an emotional attachment to the the subjects being being documented but in terms of like bone drills and I think I think they're both righted this shouldn't be posed this should be strictly what you see as we at the photograph that's that's the best that's the duty of it you can't can't be altering things because then it becomes a bias story okay Dave everyone else on the panel wrong and you're right let me explain why you're all wrong so you know photojournalism I I'm gonna have to be a dick and I have to take this phone call right now one second I'll be no yeah absolutely let me let me y'all limb I'll talk for a few minutes here so again you know we're talking about photojournalism right photojournalism encompasses many different aspects of the documentation of you know photography's for journalistic activity one of those activities is the portrait specifically in there's there's portraits that aren't staged which you know you just happen to be in a place and you've got a great shot of somebody maybe they turn your head towards you or look in your general direction you get a great shot of them that is a completely in the moment raw unedited on you know unguided photo of them and it's as pure as pure as photojournalism as can be although if they are looking at you and they have the the reason they're looking at you is because they've caught your attention you've caught their attention whether you know then you are affecting the scene then it becomes less pure in terms of its photojournalism and you have to take that into account it's in the same vein as if you're shooting a subject and they're reacting to you they're laughing because you're there and you're taking their photograph and they're there smiling and getting this happy great moment but it's only because of you you are now affecting the scene and therefore it takes away from whatever photo journalistic activity you're doing but when you are pulling someone out to stage a photo in what I consider in most cases either a personality portrait or environmental personality portrait that's a different subset of photojournalism it's still photojournalism because you're not you're not doing anything that isn't within keeping with the person you're photographing you're just – you know help tell a story in one shot you know if you you find a doll maker and he's got a great you know he get a shot of him and his doll making shot you got an ironworker he got shot him in his iron working shop and again that's a posed shot usually with lighting and everything and in their scene and that's it's it's a staged photo yes but it's not like it's it's not the purest form of photojournalism you know but it's still a subset of photojournalism that I think the the viewer knows what they're looking at you know in those instances you know you're not lying to the viewer you're not saying that this isn't true of them you're not taking a steelworker and putting them into an you know an office environment and saying Joe the steel worker works in you know a cubicle in a office building you're not lying to them you're just trying to help present a story and you're doing that through the art of personality portraiture and so I I would disagree with the idea that you know those have photos aren't photojournalism they're just not the purest form of on unscripted photojournalism so speak and I think you know the viewer should be able to understand what they're seeing is a you know a staged portrait photo or you can always say you know John poses for a photograph in his workshop you know there's nothing saying against that it's still under the umbrella of code journalism I think you're right you know I totally agree hundred percent um because you are journalism is it's hard to be specific with it because you know you are you as a journalist Mitchell journalist you're trying to your your duty is to tell story of a specific subject like you're talking about I do not agree with Zach saying that just staged a portraits cousin sort of editorial or one last thing he said can remember and do you think it falls into like you said it was an area of photojournalism but again like if if it's a pure forming you're not going to want to most people if if it's a newspaper you'd wanna be having a staged portrait of the event and being like these are one of the people from the event cuz then anything becomes what we documented thing this you know yeah if you're like on the scene like that one shot of the the person who was oh we just lost Ron oh no I guess something happened was internet connection oh well if you're if you're like that one scene you know where there was at the memorial and the guy was telling the girl to put the toy or whatever the doll in the memorial that's a staged shot and Pho gently that's a lie that's lying in photojournalism and that person shouldn't be ever allowed to do photojournalism and no one should ever buy their work because they're obviously have ethical standards but you know if you pull somebody away and say you want to do a nice shot with some flash and whatever in the scene that is just portraiture you know it's a portraiture it's you know and there's portraiture that is photojournalism and there's court sure does not vote journalism and I think you know when it's you know design with a purpose and it's still telling a story a truthful story that's still again a subset of photojournalism angry yeah so that was my kind of you know taking up taken uh on on sax argument there and yeah I think if you're you know if you if you're shooting something like editorial you know I guess the difference between sort of like a staged photo an editorial is um I would say that you know in terms of a Venn diagram of things you know editorial photography can also fall and and be a part of BOE journalism as well or as an aspect of it you know I mean how would you define editorial photography if it's different from photo journal well I think I think I think I think did the definition of editorial photography is it's usually a commissioned work right okay and throw drills in the same time it's it's commissioned or it's just you have it as a printing you sell it but I think they can both live in the same in the same world I think you just have to clearly define when it's an it's when it's a stage shot when it's not and once you do that I think you followed yep god of making sure that you're a trustworthy visual journalist you're not you're not propping a shot up like you're saying what the with the power for but having the having the the relative darkness and the seen you know and yeah do that no I was gonna say I mean you know I was gonna say any any photographer worth their salt should be thinking about the posed portraiture in addition to you know they're they're you know legitimate sort of unedited but on the stage type of photojournalism like if you're sending me out to shoot something like an event and there's an opportunity where I can pull a subject out and do a nice Welsh lit shot of them that you know tells the story like an environmental portrait I'm gonna do that in addition to all the normal shots where I'm just shooting whatever happens in front of my face yeah so whether it whether I'm doing it on my own for freelance or whether somebody has commissioned me to do it that's something that I always think about when I'm out you know doing anything yeah I mean I think is that anyone that you always want to strive to get build your portfolio and you had the opportunity to increase your portfolio and make better work and then represent what you as a subscriber can do and and just further show your techniques and your skill set I mean you're always going to take that to do that you know what the same time how many Frode realist do you see photographed and bent at the same time also push a portrait that was where they broke they broke the the scene and influenced the scene you know like if you if you are lucky if because we're also i mean i'm i think is we're all safe to say we're all very we're all great photographers you know in our own right and we can all find a portrait and take it and we know it's a good portrait you know when it's a bad fortune it's a good portrait right you would know if you broke you broke the scene and and you influenced it you were unpublished at that forgot being like this is a genuine portrait of the scene that happened that I've had involved in oh yeah no I mean you have to identify that you know I usually always identify that in the caption I'll say something like closes for a portrait you know yeah yeah that's Atticus that's where he's supposed to be and in the title the newspaper the journal has the right to say no we can use our yes we would love that and then you know I think it's fun it's all DC we cover our bases and we're being were being a truthful journal I think I think it gets fuzzy when people say it's it's it's genuine when it's not you don't I mean right yeah if you climb you try and claim some awesome well-lit portrait is something that just happened in the moment and it isn't then yeah you're you're there you go your ethical your photojournalism license is gonna be taken from you okay yeah exactly all right let's go and move on to our last topic because we're getting along and hopefully Zach will come in before we end the show and we can ask them about this camera because of course he loves the Nikon's every time we talk about cameras and I mentioned my camera which I won't say the name this would be the first episode I don't mention my camera but you know whenever we talk about that at all sensor size and everything so let's go and talk about our last topic very quickly this evening so we can end the show it's the nikon d80 so some specs leaked about it I'm gonna throw over to the spec sheet here so some specs leaked about this camera and it looks like a pretty decent you know Nikon camera looks like every other Nikon camera I've ever seen honestly but it looks like a you know from the Roman band with that is the red band on the camera yes I think so at the Nikon I guess it's a Nikon yeah let's talk about some of the specs of this camera and then we can talk about you know if we care so we got a 45 megapixel sensor full-frame FX full frame is it FX full-frame wellies full frame so that Zack will be happy about that 180,000 RGB sensor okay same as the d5 I think that's pretty awesome you know I've used the d 4 and D 4s and the d5 I mean you get a camera the same as d5 in the sensor size or sensor type that's that's a big deal you know especially when you talk about something that could potentially be thousands of dollars less native ISO range so it's a really good high ISO typical of the Canon cameras that's nice to see one hundred fifty three point out of focus system center point autofocus 8k time-lapse shooting we talked a little bit about this when we mentioned the the story last week I believe and we talked about a Kay time-lapse what does that mean is that like a Kay movie you know and III don't know I don't know exactly what that means but I believe it's I guess it's producing an 8k movie if their time at a time lapse but 4k uhd I mean that's that's how it should be typical the industry's moving towards more 4k and cameras Canon you're hearing me 51 photo buffer that's good to see through and 2 inch LCD tilting and you know one of the reasons I like the camera I like is because it pops out and it turns around and you can see it you do selfie shots and all that stuff it's nice for like it then like hi Reacher you know if you wanna get a little higher than when you are oh yeah I use it all the time I mean no I would hate to have to go back to one where it's like you know worse it doesn't even move at all it's just a static you know thing it's just you're you're guessing you're praying you're hoping you get something but know it yeah thanks I'll never clear is canon what's that it's kind of given your Canon no I have the okay here we go panasonic gh1 how do you like it I love it I think it's a great camera you know I think it does everything I needed to do my needs are more towards the video realm with you know 4k video being something that I'm very interested in doing I do a lot more nowadays but I think it's also great still cameras use 20 megapixel stills it has a lot of great features you know I love the tilting LCD screen even for stills because again I can do those high shots and low shocks without you know guessing or craning my neck or getting on the floor and I think that's it's really invaluable so I love the camera and I'm a now a true believer of Panasonic and I will be switching over and using them for all future camera needs that I have I sold all my Canon gear you know I had the entire set and I had a I had a you know Canon you know 5d mark ii i had the 7200 20 to 28 to 135 35 one I don't even know 30 28 to 135 or something and like the 1630 16 to 24 so I uh I remember anymore but anyways I had the entire like kit and tons of lenses I was totally committed so it all went to Panasonic so yeah right now kind of sock master race right here you know this is a little bit smaller a Micro Four Thirds sensor I think that's fine it's it's okay yeah it's lumix line yeah yeah yeah oh I'm now fully committed with Panasonic and their lumix line so good I'll probably at the GH 6 and 7 everything like that because you know they're they're gonna be the ones that go you know I'm more than sure the next PGH will probably have 6k video recording and then probably one after that I'll have a K you know I'm more than you know believe it so they're they're on the cutting edge they're doing a lot of great things I think a lot of other manufacturers should be doing but going back to the D 850 really quick just to see if there any more specs here that are worth talking about so they're using it there they convert to execute D cards and then I can always been like that are currently being CS when they make a change no they've been use execute ease and their higher end cameras for a while now the last 5 10 5 6 years especially with the D Series cameras II think it's like it's an influence from Sony making their sensors or no no I don't know I I think I know I believe Nikon you know the executi format is proprietary to Nikon I believe enough that they wouldn't like everybody to use xqd cards I believe they are faster than you know SD I'm nearing yeah yeah I mean I've used them but I never really got into them I mean I'm sure they're faster but when you're talking about I mean nowadays with USB 3.0 I just don't see you know the huge benefit of a faster transfer rate for a whole new format I'd rather just stick with you know a more traditional format like SD yeah but yeah they have the SD in the xqd 30 no geez lots of awesome stuff here but yeah anything else you want to say about this camera I mean to use Nikon I'm a Canon guy yeah I mean the rock yeah I you know I think the seven frames per second is great but beyond that I mean you know this camera I think I think you they don't talk about the 4k whether it's 4k 60 I think that's that's a big important thing you know we're seeing you know now that all the cameras or most cameras have 4k it's like 4k 64 K 120 you know the more higher frame rates you know like that are gonna be the selling points until they move up to 6k and 8k and all that fun stuff but yeah I think I think this is a good camera I think if I were in the market for a Nikon you know I didn't want to spend the money on a d5 I think this would be you know it's fully acceptable like you know replacement rate substitute for that you know I think and that's the thing I think this this could potentially eat into their market share you know for the t5 well am I gonna get a d5 buying a camera that's pretty surprised pointing I don't think they announced the price plan so one thing I didn't leak from this it looks like years ago yeah I mean people have guessed around $4,000 which is still you know thousands of dollars cheaper than the d5 yeah so you know they're mounting you know you know night now what's that I said and also doesn't mean that one of my favorite selling points mean for me we're ever gonna Nikon's the fact that is there their mouth there man hasn't changed you know right yeah so I mean if you've got a Nikon glass you can just roll to this camera it's amazing so yeah I think this is all in the right direction for an icon and I think canon could probably take a few pages out of their playbook here ask Anna what's that you hear us Canon yeah I know right they don't hear us yeah I don't know you're not watching you know but no I I'm happy to see this camera so we'll see where it goes from here I'll show I'm sure they'll come out with the official announcement in the price soon and then we'll probably have another story talking about that but I always write that's gonna be our show for this evening I don't know we're gonna come back for the end of the show but I definitely enjoyed talking to them about all the fun stuff he took care Partin in Charlottesville we're not fun stuff actually as it turned out Jose you mentioned your website would you please plug that again before we we close out all right so yeah you can you can find me on instagram at Jose Alvarado and my website is Jose I'll write a photo dot com awesome well thank you so much for visiting us to this week on the show have a great time talking to you again thank you all for watching tonight's show or listening tonight's show we really appreciate it again please follow us on the social networks visit around the lens com4 again links to everything we mentioned tonight and also how to find us on social media and also archive of previously published episodes any ways around the lens episode 87 my name is Ben David J Murphy and we are out